Well, I don't think one ever can give up monitoring and aiming to perfect intonation.

When you play with someone less skilled, I am inclined to think you should not compensate for their faulty intonation. When I play with my teacher, I want her to provide a firm pitch framework for me to fit into: if she adjusted to me, I would never learn properly.

Further, the upper voice should normally tune to the lower: if the pieces allow it, you can use open strings a fair bit, then there should be no question that you are providing the correct harmonic foundation for your partner to fit in with.

The acid test of intonation for me is playing with piano (either live or recording) and having the results recorded. The playback doesn't make pretty listening most of the time, but some day...

Thanks! I think that is what is hardest for me.... to provide a firm pitch foundation in the face of small intonation issues. My intonation is not 100% yet either but in general I think it is a little more solid.

I guess the question I was trying to ask was..... those of you that have developed intonation through long practice sessions alone, how easily can you get pulled off pitch by another player's imperfect intonation? I find that since I am so ear oriented, I tend to unconsciously adjust to the pitches I hear. And there are times where I can tell one of us is off but I can't figure out which one. So I freeze and hope we agree on the next one.

Paul Goelz
Rochester Hills, MI USA
paul at pgoelz dot com
www.pgoelz.com

"down in Joe's Garage, we didn't have no dope or LSD, but a coupla quarts of beer , would fix it so the intonation would not offend your ear...."-Frank Zappa

If you recognize that someone else's pitch is different- that's the biggie!!!!! I think that in jam sessions it is a matter of working out interpersonal issues just like any relationship.

Do you try to match their pitch?
Do you stick with what you think is the correct pitch and hope they get a clue?
Do you put down your instrument and stop playing?
Do you just keep playing and try to not let it bother you?
Do you suggest taking a break and then tune their instrument when they go to the bathroom......?

clayman

Since I am not an intonation rock myself, I tend to adjust unless I am sure that it isn't me. And even then my reflexes sometimes take over and I adjust within reason.

Fortunately, most of the time I am playing with other fixed pitch instruments so any adjustment required is because I missed the note.

I was mainly interested in how others deal with intonation and how rigid it is after you have been playing for a while. I have excellent ears but I do not have the fine kinesthetic (?) sense required to place my fingers perfectly each and every time. So I listen and correct as needed.

Paul

Paul Goelz
Rochester Hills, MI USA
paul at pgoelz dot com
www.pgoelz.com

Intonation is a constant problem and don't let people kid you that they always play in tune.
There are always arguments about it and the longer I play and work with other people the more I believe to a certain extent, intonation is a subjective matter. For example, I write for film and often orchestras from the eastern block are hired to play stuff (because they are not so expensive, are well trained get the job done quickly. However, they seem to play sharper than the London orchestras. They seem to be tuned closer to A 444 rather than a440. Americans seen to favour A442 as do most people who are trained as soloist because they say that the extra bit of sharpness helps them cut through more. Being from a Jazz background I tune for A440 which is supposed to be the world's standard only to find other string players saying (when I give the A) that it sounds a little flat. When I play sessions that have electronically tuned instruments eg. sampled piano, it sounds fine but in ensemble situations there is always an argument. This is usually solved by taking an A442 from an electronic tuner and people seem more comfortalbe with that. Having spent some time playing with Indian musicians (who's tuning I find impeccable - they say that only God has perfect tuning and although we, as mere humans can never be perfectly intune we must aspire to it) I take a leaf from their book and practice to a drone of a 1st and 5th or 1 4 and 5. While there seems to be some subjectivity on the tuning of 3rd 6ths 7ths and 9th etc. The tonic (which represents god) and 5th and the 4th, to a lesser extent are imutable and cannot be embelished or bent out of tune. However, when I play with westerners these intervals are also a matter of subjectivity and there are arguments about this. One guy I played with last week (a graduate of the Royal College in London) was saying he prefers and wider tuning between the strings - he plays beautifully but to my ear, his notes, particularly on the C string, sound a little sharp to me. As far as playing intune with less experienced players, with not such a refined ear, It is impossible to keep intune when one person on your left is playing flat and the person on your right is sharp. I teach amatueur orchestra and often play in the section and find it incredibly difficult to maintain good tuning through out a performance and I would challenge anyone, however long they have been playing to do so. Nice one - one cellorette.

If I could add another bit to my last submission - Ensembles take time to tune to each other. When teaching my orchestra I find that a good way for them to warm up is for them to play chords together. I usually write the charts my self - one of my favorites uses the chords from John Coltrane's Giant Steps - not only are they great chords but they move in an unusual way and to someone who doesn't know the tune, it is more difficult to anticipate what is coming next. I make the orchestra play semibreves sometimes just moving between two bars - back and forward until the tuning gets better. I use baroque music and do a chord analysis and play the whole piece just using the harmonic structure rather than the tune(s). When they finally get round to playing the tune it sounds much more intune as they have experienced the chords and have a greater understand of the music and what there job is in creating a feeling of moving through a harmonic structure rather than a bunch of random notes written on a bit of manuscript. This is much more fun than playing scales together and is much more usufull and I get results.
Nice one - one cellorette.

As the title says.... nice discussion.

While my intonation on the cello is at times kinda spotty I fully understand the concept and have been paying attention to some of the things you mention for years when I tune my dulcimer. I think that the variations in tuning the thirds etc. are likely based on a lifetime of exposure to the equal tempered scale. People used to the ET scale are used to the sounds of the thirds and find that sound normal. I have developed a tuning scheme on my dulcimer that flattens the thirds in D and G and makes for a much tighter sound. Aside from the fretless instrument family, the dulcimer and possibly the harp are unique in that they can be partially re-tempered even though they play in more than one key.

What I like about the cello is that (provided you are playing with people who are solid enough) you can play really in tune regardless of the key. There is nothing like that feeling when two notes from two different instruments come together in perfect tune.

I'm also glad to hear that I am not the only one that has trouble stying on pitch in the presence of several simultaneous subtly different pitches.

In the folk community that I inhabit, everyone tunes to A440. Everyone that is except some Irish fiddlers, who tend to tune a whole half step sharp to get that "edge". Makes it a bit hard to play with them though......

Paul Goelz
Rochester Hills, MI USA
paul at pgoelz dot com
www.pgoelz.com