Hello Sophie,

Yup I too noticed I have lots of elbow room. I am somewhat of a newcomer to the cello but I have been playing guitar for a long time.

I have pathetic reading skills on a piano and transposing what little I have to cello is too much like hard work. I play mostly rock r&b and blues so I really don't need notation. The improv skills needed for this type of music is quite limited...so I'm right at home..LOL

I don't see how you can develop improvisation without other people to play with, other musicians are usually quick to advise when you don't have it right...haha.

Tony.

Hey, Sophie -

It's a really great question. I have a few different answers:

Free improvisation. This involves following the other players - its a lot of fun and terrific for your sense of ensemble, and for developing your ear. Like lots of things, the more you do it the better you get at it.

When you begin this, make some really simple rules such as "play three notes, hold the last note while the other person plays three notes". After a while you don't need rules. That is a short summary, but its a great journey.

Next is maybe jamming to a groove, which is a repeated melodic and rhythmic pattern, over which several people can improvise. The more people playing on top of the groove, the more they tend to assume roles such as bass, rhythm, accompaniment, and melody, just to keep from getting in each other's way.

The most standard place for improvisation is over a set of chord changes. If it is a limited set of changes, it is easier. Tony has this scoped - he understands the chord structure so well for blues he doesn't really need much else. For more complicated music, its a matter of learning more, learning to play over changes. Tony is definitely right that its all about playing with other people, and what they can show you. There are also a lot of play along CD's and books that help you develop your ear. Jamey Aebersold is a name to look up for jazz - lots of cd's with really good rhythm sections to improvise over.

Also, check out some of the records at the New Directions store. A lot of it is improvised.

One thing - my take is that technique definitely helps improvisation. The more different sounds you can make on the instrument, the more ability you have to really wake up the people you are jamming with. It just brings more to the party if you can blow it through the roof with the articulation on a single note. Slides and shimmies and sforzando on a cello can really make the sound pop.

Me, I am working hard on the working through the changes. I spend some energy trying not to worry about being a beginner. Mostly, though, I really like it and the people I meet and the people who help me.

Rex

Good point about playing with others. I rarely get the opportunity to jam with people, I guess because I'm constantly surrounded by musicians at uni who are not really accustomed to jamming. I played a couple of gigs a month ago with a guitarist and completely improvised everything and it went pretty good...

I guess start freaking out when it comes to jazz improv... I should ask my questions a bit more clearly huh? Anyway its funny when you say that other musicians are quick to advise when you don't have it right because that is not really the case in New Zealand. We have a culture in the music industry and amongst musicians in schools and universities whereby encouragement is laid on thick - even when your're shit! Call it musician malaise or whatever, but you'd be hard pressed to find people boo-ing you off stage or telling you you played the wrong chord round here!
Are you currently playing in a rock/r&b outfit, Tony? How are you finding learning the cello coming from many years of playing guitar? I teach guitar and find it really annoying trying to transcribe guitar licks to cello because of the difference in tunings (4ths for guitar/5ths for cello)

Sophie

Hello Sophie,

Many years ago I was dating a violinist and student at Guelph University. I showed up with my 12 string and suggested a jam so she took me to one of their music rooms. Less than 5 minutes into it we were invaded by other students, sheet music got handed out and I became an audience. Thoroughly enjoyable but not what i was after....haha.

Oooh Jazz. Well that's another story. As far as I can gather it's supposed to sound like you are making it up as you go however you are also expected to be able to repeat whatever you did and notate it for others. Some of the more brilliant inspired improv takes years of practice...LOL

The unwritten '3 rules'of improv, Play in tune, Don't smother, Don't dominate.
I am very wary of jazz because I don't know how to apply the 'rules of improv'. Neither do a lot of jazz players

Canadians are also a pretty polite bunch. I wasn't referring to open mic or public jam night as we too get doubtful musicians in these types of venue. Friendly hints and helpful suggestions are the norm here as well. Haha...No, public humiliation is quite unheard of, even when deserved.

I have a home/garage band and we play R&B and Rock mostly with a little country rock (Eagles, The Band) stuff as well. These are the musicians I was referring to, when you get together for a few tunes on a regular basis you'll get more of the helpful criticism and of course the luxury of doing it over until you get it the way everyone likes it.

I was a little frustrated at first with trying and failing to transcribe my favourite licks and riffs but the hairy stick is making up for it big time, so I'm getting new ones. Grin. Actually the 4ths/5ths thing isn't so much of a deal for Rock, the dropped D Guitar tuning is a Rock cheat thing, having the bottom strings tuned in 5ths makes it easy for simple power chords. I love the sound of double stopping with a hammered minor 3rd.

Tony.

Hello Rex,

Are you playing jazz? I can't think of anything more demanding for a beginner, unless you mean beginner to improv but with formal training. I'm quietly struggling with 'Classical Gas' and 'Take Five' with very slow improvement.

I love your comment about the 'different sounds' You're not kidding..haha, I'm amazed at some of the sounds I can get with that hairy stick, not just the perpetual sustain but with inappropriate bowing right near the bridge you can sound like feedback or other boxed guitar effects. When you combine that nonsense with hammered or trilled slides you have pretty much put everyone else's effects to shame and you haven't even plugged in yet...LOL

I usually use a Gibson guitar amp with most of the treble turned down but have been playing around with a Digitech GSP7 but haven't explored the many hundreds of settings very much. Our guitar player has a PodXT live which is equally mind boggling to set but is also way cool to play through.

Tony.

I agree with Tony, jazz as a beginner on the cello is no easy task especially since there isn't relatively a tradition of jazz on the cello...

Yeah I agree about having good technique for improv - I guess the more in touch you are what sounds are where on the cello, the more you are able to directly and immediately express yourself?

Thanks for the overview on improv - it was really helpful. Have you read the book on improv by Derek Bailey? (can't remember the title!) I recently read it and it was really helpful to understand the lineage of improvisation and how different musicians value improv.

I guess what I took from the book was that there is no specific formula for learning to improvise, and there are different schools of thought. Hence I was wondering how people on this site practice improvisation? And by practice I mean, play! So many musicians like myself find it difficult to just let go and allow yourself to make sounds that sound "bad" (and learn from this experience of course by understanding why).

Before I go on too many tangents I guess the main question I want to raise is how do YOU as an individual approach the changes? This is just for curiosity!

I personally (when I get the time :s) try to formulate a concept and think of an idea I want to work on and expand during my solo, then try to make my fingers do the thinking for me! Afterwards, if I've thought of a really cool lick I repeat it over and over till it sounds "right" and fluid to me. This is all in the hope that I grow a vocabulary on the cello of my very own that is informed by things that I like and not just the standard patterns (which I avoid like the plague!)

Yes I think I'll look into Jamey Aebersold, the bands are really good quality from what I hear... much better than some of the crappy midi file type backing tracks I've experienced in the past!

cheers

Sophie

I used to go to free-improvisation jam sessions in Baltimore - someone described free-improv as painting with sound. I guess that works - it's at its best when there is real dialogue going on between the players improvising together.

Lately, though I have been developing a more disciplined, traditionalist approach to improvisation, by learning jazz tunes. It is hard, but I find it rewarding. "Blue Bossa" and "Autumn Leaves" are frequently recommended as first tunes to learn - I've been working on both. My cello teacher was stressed out at first trying to help me learn the melody line to "In Walked Bud", because it doesn't fit conveniently into one position, requires shifts, etc. and she's learning jazz too, albeit at a much faster rate due to her higher level of technical development on the cello.

She was floored by Chris White's Jazz Cello book. If you are learning Autumn Leaves, I very highly recommend this book, as it has Chris' arrangement. He called it "Falling Leaves" and arranged it to a different key, but it's essentially the same tune. You get the melody, chord changes, chord fingerings, and bass line.

For improvising practice I've been following a routine that I started as an experiment on myself a few months ago. It involves composing little melodies in one's head first, then figuring out how to play it on the instrument. I can't rip through changes like Friedlander, Blom, or the other jazz cello greats yet, but the results have been promising.